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Post by Volktales on Aug 11, 2021 6:54:59 GMT -8
Late night last night. Will look at a kit tonight...
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 11, 2021 9:29:49 GMT -8
So it appears that I may have too much oil pressure. The seal around the top of the remote filter has also been pushed out of the filter housing. The filter is an Austrian made Knecht / Mahle product. It was new with fresh Castrol 20/50 oil as recommended by the builder (Scat).
I've checked the relief pistons in the case for free movement. The one closest to the no.4 cylinder has a VDO oil temperature sender in place of the plug. The threads are the same length as the original plug. Could this affect the operation of the piston? I am aware that the spring length and therefore resistance is very important.
I have a Scat full flow oil pump, as supplied with the engine. I assume that this has a pressure relief built in for the cold oil on startup? How can I determine if it does?
Any suggestions?
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Post by mitchy965 on Aug 11, 2021 11:46:32 GMT -8
The pump cover will house a spring and piston if it is a relief cover. I had a relief piston (case) stick and it blew the filter right off the adaptor. Sorry and I know my views don't line up with many but 20w50 is great oil for some worn out pos engine with lots of internal leakage. Just imagine how thick that shit is cold and how much pressure rises,all the relief valves open,something has to give and even the best mahle filter is reduced to a relief valve. Screw on a cheapo fram and try some 10w30 . Screw in a gauge at the motor and try again. I have used the relief port on the motor with no effect on the pressure it's a crappie place for a sender,( doesn't see any oil flow.) All that said the only other time I saw this was when the oil outlet on the pump was so offset from the case inlet the oil had no place to go.
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 11, 2021 12:15:38 GMT -8
Thanks Mitch. I have a couple of gallons of Castrol 5/30 intendedfor a car I no longer have. Is that too light? There willbe some residual 20/50 in the cooler and lines. I am thinking of adding one of these: cip1.ca/c31-115-141-138k/They're expensive, but if something else let's go on the road it's going to be even more expensive.
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Post by mitchy965 on Aug 11, 2021 12:46:09 GMT -8
see if bergs have one in stock. think they were 50 usd, 5w30 will work.
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 11, 2021 13:23:47 GMT -8
The Berg one would entail a new pump. Mine is billet, the Berg cover is cast steel, so not compatible together unfortunately. I like their price though
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 11, 2021 14:49:32 GMT -8
The engine is out and in pieces. It seems that this oil did come from the 3/4 cylinder head. The top of the case, cylinders and heads are clean and dry. There is zero indication of leakage from the cooler.
What I did find was that two of the locking nuts on the rockers had come off the rocker arms and were lying in the bottom of the head covers. The other two were loose. There is no visible damage, but I wonder why the oil came out of the top and why there was so much of it?
I have driven this engine before and although it seems cursed, it has never done this. The only change to the heads since it was last driven is the addition of breather lines. I must have not tightened the locking nuts properly, but surely this shouldn't cause it to pump oil out of the head?
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Post by mitchy965 on Aug 11, 2021 16:14:04 GMT -8
i prefer the berg cover because its steel. its a cast iron pump i wont use (melling). what did vw use??? my guess on your leak without pics would be unsealed rocker arm studs (unless they are blind
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Post by Volktales on Aug 11, 2021 19:28:04 GMT -8
I recently dealt with a leak from one of those breather lines attached to the valve cover on a Beetle. The spigot was sealed with an o-ring which didn't work too well. I used a couple of those copper rings we use for drain plug gaskets at work. These are solid copper rings, not the composite type as found in a type 1 atrainer kit. Anyway it worked fine on the engine at work. At idle not much oil would be sprayed around this area, but driving it must slosh on the corners, or maybe more flings off the rockers at higher RPMs. At one time 20w50 was VW's recommended choice at the dealerships. This has very much fallen out of favour for some time now. Many are using 5w30 or 10w30 now, although this is by no means universal. Which oil to use is still an extremely controversial topic on TheSamba...
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 11, 2021 20:07:04 GMT -8
I am starting to wonder if it was me mistaking the source of the leak. I recall it flowing over the heat exchanger and I thought it also came over the head cover too. I ran to the cab to shut it off pretty quickly though, so didn't spend much time looking for the source at that point! Wherever it came from it was mid way along the heat exchanger and there was lots of it - a solid flow of around 4 inches across, tha t I was able to scoop off the driveway with a dustpan 😣 I don't believe that it came from the breather line. This area is dry and there was too much volume without a bug hole in the line. The spray was at the rear of the engine too - it went all over the underside of the tinware in this area. When Russ suggested the cooler seals I was surprised, because nothing came down between the cylinders, and I was trying to figure out how it could have flowed that far without going through the cooling fins. At least it makes cleaning it up easier, and it give me a chance to tidy up things like securing fuel lines behind the shroud and doing a few other odds and ends whilst the motor is out, that I can't reach with it in place. I might even do the cooler seals again, just to make sure I have the correct ones in there. I've emailed Berg to get a shipping quote and ask if their pump cover will work with the alloy pump body. I hope the answer is yes, because then it will give me an excuse to order a Berg linkage for the carbs. If I'm shipping something from the States I might as well make it worthwhile, right?
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Post by Volktales on Aug 11, 2021 20:14:41 GMT -8
So maybe it was just a leaking valve cover gasket, then???
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Post by Rob Sannes on Aug 11, 2021 20:30:16 GMT -8
Mark could you have sucked a valve cover gasket on that side? Valve covers and gaskets are known to be problematic especially with after market covers, gaskets will bunch up and pull up in to the rocker box. I use scat covers that have a retaining tabs that hold the gaskets in place. I use a Berg relief full flow pump cover on a aluminum shadek pump. I also use 10/30 oil and have had good luck so far.
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Post by owdlvr on Aug 11, 2021 20:57:44 GMT -8
So it appears that I may have too much oil pressure. The seal around the top of the remote filter has also been pushed out of the filter housing. The filter is an Austrian made Knecht / Mahle product. It was new with fresh Castrol 20/50 oil as recommended by the builder (Scat). I've checked the relief pistons in the case for free movement. The one closest to the no.4 cylinder has a VDO oil temperature sender in place of the plug. The threads are the same length as the original plug. Could this affect the operation of the piston? I am aware that the spring length and therefore resistance is very important. I have a Scat full flow oil pump, as supplied with the engine. I assume that this has a pressure relief built in for the cold oil on startup? How can I determine if it does? Any suggestions? Good LORD do not run 20w50, especially in a new engine. In our climate 5w30, 10w40, or my personal favourite for performance engines...0w40 synthetic. The VDO sender shouldn't be the cause of your issues, every motor I own runs the same sender. A sender in a different location would be more ideal (due to the flow issues mentioned) but packaging issues means I run them there. The rally bug runs three oil senders, with a rotating switch so I can see oil temp in different spots. The pressure relief sensor is only 5deg off what I expect, so as far as I'm concerned the location is "good enough" for my motors.
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Post by owdlvr on Aug 11, 2021 21:06:18 GMT -8
Reading through the rest of the replies, a few thoughts:
- I only put a breather line on the 1/2 valve cover unless the engine _really_ needs it. The 3/4 head fills with oil at high(er) revs, so the breather line isn't very useful (in my opinion). I don't get leaks from my breather lines on the 1/2 side, often got them on the 3/4 side from the breather.
- The SCAT valve covers with the tabs are awesome, solved my gasket sucking issues on the Rally bug.
- No explanation for the rocker nuts, suspect user error. Not related to the oil issue.
- Valve cover gasket, is now the most likely issue.
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Post by CrazyBrit on Aug 12, 2021 4:52:11 GMT -8
Thanks Gents. I hadn't thought of the gasket being sucked in. I was expecting blown out and knew that hadn't happened. I'm back at work for a few days so will update when I get back.
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