original or restored- how do you decide?

[beetlejuice]

hey VW friends.  I have a '60 and '71 beetle.  The 71 is in mostly good condition and almost all original, but has significant rust on one side (the usual stuff- fenders, quarters, running boards, etc.).  The '60 is a runner but bas been painted a few times and has the typical changes over the years you might expect (engine from a '68, 12v conversion, not original/stock bumpers, etc).  I think the interior could be somewhat restored to original on the 60 but would be much nicer if I took my time, saved my money, and spent a few quid on a new interior, paint, etc.  

So my question is, how do you decide when to stay original with 'patina' or when to restore?  And are you inclined to leave some things original while restoring others on the same car (always nice to have a chassis and drive train that is solid).  I know there are lots of factors (time, money, resale, perfectionism, wanting original, etc.) but I'm interested to hear how you decide....


Btw, I reached out to Chris at www.classicvwbugs.com and he replied within a day. Good guy.  I'm sure you know his site, but if not, worth a look.  His YouTube channel is pretty great, too (he said he does this instead of a newsletter now): www.youtube.com/@classicvwbugs

And if you're wondering what to get me for Christmas.....  


Drew in Courtenay

[clay]

Do what makes you happy...if something about the car bothers you, fix it the way you're comfortable. The Patina look started become popular when paintwork started getting outrageously expensive and environmental regulations made things more difficult.

[beetlejuice]

yup- that makes sense.

just found this. Have never watched Jay Leno's garage but it speaks to the same question- with a '55 beetle.

[CrazyBrit]

I approach it with a safety and driveability attitude. If it makes it safer and doesn't detract from the experience and look of the car, I'll do it. Ie, disc brakes, improved suspension.

I wouldn't drive my bus with a top speed of less than 60 miles per hour on today's roads - it wouldn't get up the hills around here without getting rear ended by a phone toting moron. So a more powerful motor is acceptable.

That said, all of my modifications are bolt on and can easily be changed back to stock. I've kept all of the original components that I have removed.

Be careful what you buy though. There is a lot of new junk out there which is significantly inferior in quality to the originals. Unlike Ghias, there is a lot of choice for Beetles. If you're not sure, ask on this site or www.thesamba.com for advice on what is good and what is not.

[Volktales]

I am not the biggest patina fan out there, but the right car with the right amount of patina can look fantastic. Rusted out panels are not patina despite what some think... I like my VWs shiny, and in stock available colours, or at least era looking colours. Don't mind performance or safety modifications, as long as they are not irreversible. Not a fan of Subaru conversions, or other make swaps either... But that is just me...

[beetlejuice]

Thanks both. Your comments make sense to me. I like the idea of focussing on making sure the car can perform well if it's being used for any amount of driving. When I drive the '60 I definitely understand the idea of improving brakes and suspension. Probably wouldn't matter if I don't plan to drive them much but it would be nice to know that I'm safe on the road- especially if mods are not done at the expense of the classic-ness of the car.

And yes, good points about patina. When I look around - particularly at old motorcycles, it can be a good look. But when I think about it, I'd sure like to have the car looking original and cared for. And keeping it reversible makes good sense. Even though the original engine is in the 71, I have a rebuild for it that I think I will put in as the other is almost certain to need some rebuild time. But my thinking is to keep the original engine even if I don't get to rebuilding (which is not as much my thing). I'm lucky to have the space to be able to keep extras around....

[owdlvr]

Food for thought that's appropriate for this thread: m.roadkillcustoms.com/how-perfectionism-ruins-automotive-hobby/

How I decide what to do really depends on the car and project. I'm okay with things like imperfect paint on my German Look...I'd be much happier if the paint was perfect, but a respray was out of the budget and it's "good enough" for the 100,000+km I've put on it the last two years. Besides, new paint means new fenders, and the only ones I want I have to pick-up in Germany. No corners were cut on any of the rest of the build, however, which may (now that I think of it) be an indicator of 'my style'.

I'm okay with the crap repo bumpers on the '58, but absolutely insisted on paying silly money to get the seats exactly perfect. The car really deserves a better carpet set, but the TMI carpets will "do for now" and probably never get changed out for as long as I own the car. The mechanicals and 'driving experience', however, are modified and maintained to precision standards. I swear once I get it "perfect" (and that's a constantly moving target...) I'll upgrade the bumpers to some better fitting units.

The Midget body is rusting, and the fenders are bubbling. I won't spend a dime on bodywork because the shell is too far gone, but I happily spend money on the mechanicals and anything that can be transferred over to a new shell once I find one. The rust that is visible now is not "patina" it's neglect (and also my habit of driving it all winter). I probably have another 12mo before the car needs to be reshelled or repaired because it no longer presents well.

There are lots of people restoring numbers-matching cars to perfection. If I were to acquire a particularly rare car, I'd be inclined to be very careful with my choices, but for the cars I play with there isn't a huge need for me to "preserve the example". Ironically, my Bricklin (the worst car I own) is probably the one I have to be most-careful to keep as authentic as possible.

But I don't sell my cars (or at least, in the last 12 years I've been unable to bring myself to sell one). What I do to them doesn't really matter, because the 'value' of any individual car I own is simply an insurance exercise between Hagerty and I. The Rally Bug (for instance) is insured for replacement value, which has absolutely zero bearing on its market-value if I were to sell it.

If, however, I was like my friends who do occasionally sell cars...how I modify them or restore them has to become part of the equation. Unless you modify to perfection, stock will always be more valuable than modified. Stock will (often) be more valuable than reproduction. Worn (but not destroyed) stock seats that match worn stock interior won't (necessarily) lower the car value. But new reproduction seat covers on top of worn stock carpets and floor mats will look odd, and the carpet suddenly becomes a flashing beacon to negotiate for a potential new owner. So changes, upgrades, and modifications need to be considered as an investment, and how they might impact a future sale.

There is no "right" answer.

[CrazyBrit]

Well said.

[beetlejuice]

Very well-said owdlvr. I like your point that if you never plan on selling the car (parting with them is not my strong suit) then your decisions are not nearly as much a function of investment, resale, etc. Because I tend to buy cheap and don't have a lot of disposable income, your points resonate even more. I wish I was the calibre of mechanic to be able to say the words mechanical precision. Your points remind me that in some ways, my question is a function of 'what are you starting with'? I already love my 60 beetle after a month of ownership, but there is not a lot of logic to me wondering about original, stock, etc. as it is already well-beyond that. Too many changes over the years for me to be able to make her perfect. And my budget doesn't allow for perfect in a restored kinda way. Nor does my talent. So this is helpful. Thank you for weighing in. Hearing from others gives me perspective on how to move forward and when to just enjoy the fact that I'm working on a beloved project that I can make it whatever makes sense for for me as time and money permits.

And cool to hear you have a Bricklin. Used to walk by an orange one on my way home from school in the early '80's. Loved that car. Best part was seeing the doors open.

[beetlejuice]

great article about perfectionism. Thanks for sharing owdlvr. It was Stude on this site (and neighbour down the road) who said 'focus on getting your project on the road so you can start enjoying it'. That was good advice for me. So easy to keep picking away at a project on blocks but nothing breathes life into wanting to get back to the project when you actually get to take it for a spin and remember that it's a project that you can drive and enjoy. It's when I forget that they're also a car (or motorcycle) and don't get to enjoy them for what they do best (driving) that I start to lose interest and move on to the next project....

[stude]

I would start by trying to preserver want you have most parts you can just clean up and many are can be rebuilt I would start by buying a couple liters of Rustcheck and a gallon of WD mixing them 50/50 put it in a spray bottle a squirt it all over and under your car. Pump it into anywhere you can. Start at the roof around the windows locks window pivots chrome wipers hinges under the hood pedal cluster and area pump as much in the tunnel as possible into every orifice on the pan and heater channels running boards totally cover inner fenders tail lights bumpers wheels inside and out transmission and everything in that area same with the front steering and suspension everywhere even your dash. It will soak in and lift and loosen the rust and dirt and grease. Start to wipe it off start at the cleanest shiniest area and then start wiping it off working your way down to the dirtiest greasiest rustiest spots wiping scraping digging the years of crud . Well at it do your maintenance stuff adjust valves brakes oil changes fix adjust and repair. Don't worry about Rustcheck and WD it washes off if you want to paint doesn't lift the paint or eat your rubber. I would even spray behind the dash with WD and your engine including generator with WD.

[stude]

One more thing I know how to clean things I used to be a dishwasher at www.dennys.ca/careers/

[beetlejuice]

great tip! Thank you so much! I have rustcheck now (have never used it) and was planning on hitting my two beetles with it. Good to know about adding WD. I'm on it! I think both cars will really benefit from it but I think my '71 will particularly be a good fit for it. So much of the car is in almost really great shape that a little rust protection will be significant. Will definitely be doing this. Thanks Stude!

And you're my guy when it comes to comfort food home-cooking (and clean dishes). I note from the link that Dennys is hiring. Maybe time for a second career....