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Post by owdlvr on Oct 12, 2018 22:56:31 GMT -8
lol, they do seem to have a reputation.
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Post by Volktales on Sept 21, 2020 22:24:59 GMT -8
MMM, I have not had a good rant in awhile, but lets just put this here...
There are times when I DO get tired of working on our favourite air-cooled VWs. And as usual, it is not about the original design of the car, but the lousy quality of the replacement parts. Recently at work, a carbureted Beetle came in that was running very poorly. The owner has recently purchased it, and the first thing on the agenda was a check-over and make it run better. The previous owners had obviously spent some time and money on the car before deciding to sell it on. Unfortunately some of the things they purchased were not so good... As has been mentioned before, there are a lot of less then stellar replacement parts out there for our VWs... This car features the common no-name distributor with a single vacuum advance, and a generic 34 Pict3 clone. Both these parts are the usual copy of a copy of a copy. Do they actually work? If you define work as start and run, then they often can do that. For awhile anyway. But do they really work as well as the original German parts did? Fat chance...
In this particular cars case, a lot of things were conspiring against it. As usual, the first thing to check on a poor running VW is look at the points. No surprise, they were worn almost closed due to poor quality and no sign of grease whatsoever on the distributor cam. First thing then, replace and gap the points. Note that the points did not appear to be burned, so I elected not to replace the condenser. Do you detect some foreshadowing here??? The distributor advance vacuum hose was very loose and would not have sealed as installed. This did not matter much, as the hose was connected to the wrong port on the carb anyway. And the vacuum canister had failed and would not have worked anyway... So these items were corrected, and the distributor was deemed good to go. The carb had the usual choke completely misadjusted, the idle and mixture out to lunch, and loose electrical connections. The creatively modified throttle return and spring were left along for now...
So it now would start, and idle once the timing was dialed back over 20 degrees! The valves would need to be adjusted, but that was going to wait for another time (normally you would do this earlier, but this was a repair to start as opposed to the full tune up). Anyway the car now seemed to run reasonable, and survived a short test drive. (Did not drive too far, as other work including brake work was needed). So it seemed the underlying problem was fixed, and the customer came to pick it up and drove away. Then the phone call several minutes later...
It seemed the car that I deemed running OK, did not make it down the road very far before cutting out and running like crapola again. Nice. Given this was late on a Friday, it was not until today I got another look at the Beetle. Sure enough it started and ran terrible, barely making it across the parking lot. I already had my suspicions about the condenser that I did not replace the first time around. This required distributor removal to replace and this revealed something else. While out, I rechecked the point gap and it was still fine at the 0.016 inch setting that I adjusted it too. At least it was on three out of the four distributor cam lobes... Poor quality in manufacture means the dwell will not be stable on this distributor and there is nothing you can do about it short of replacement. Nice again... As it turned out, the condenser was a no-name Chinese component like the rest of the distributor and was failing. At one time we always replaced condensers with the points in the good old days. Because back then the parts were Bosch, German made, cheap, and reliable. Those days are long gone, and now if the car has an original German condenser in there, it stays. The current replacement parts available are hit and miss from what I have read as well. Anyway the new condenser seems to have fixed the customer's problem, as the car survived several LONG test drives today...
Which leads to something else. The original distributors in these cars were precisely matched to the original carburetors when new. This was necessary to allow the smooth acceleration which depends on the correct vacuum signal from the carburetor to the correct vacuum canister in the distributor to allow just the right amount of timing advance at the right RPM. Get it right, and you are rewarded with smooth acceleration under any condition load, speed, and temperature. Get it wrong, and some level of jerkyness/ hesitation will be present on acceleration and at light cruise conditions. This particular combo on this car is not ideal, and it runs ok, but not perfect. And there is just not much you can do with the parts that are installed to make it better...
And don't get me started on when carburetor "icing" strikes and what you can't do about that either... Rant over. For now...
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Post by magikbus on Sept 22, 2020 19:58:04 GMT -8
If carburetor icing is a problem it can be solved just like it has in aircooled aircraft engines. You run a small line, maybe 1/4", from the exhaust to the carb controlled with a pull knob accessible to the pilot. When the engine cools off in flight, (often when descending) and begins to run rough, a pull on the "carb heat" knob fixes the problem instantly. I know, I know it probably should be done with a computer and several sensors that will automatically take over the task while a probably very nice person, while ignorant of anything mechanical can continue cruising along in life without any need of a brain. Stan
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Post by Volktales on Sept 22, 2020 21:38:00 GMT -8
Getting an original VW setup to work correctly as designed is very difficult nowadays. The heat risers are usually plugged, the mufflers usually are not made like the original German ones and don't flow through the risers properly. The preheat hose pickup elbow is usually missing, and even the preheat hose itself is often not there. The thermostatic control for the flap in the air cleaner is usually missing, or the shaft and bearings it runs on completely shot. Not that it matters, because the actual temperature control never works anymore. The wax pellet versions fail, the control valve fails on vacuum versions, and the cable breaks on the systems that use it. And no parts are available for any of these versions. And todays gas is different from the good stuff in the '60's, and apparently contributes to carb icing as well. Fuel injection really is the way forward...
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Post by Brenticon on Sept 23, 2020 21:00:23 GMT -8
Keep up this kind of ranting and Klynt will stop taking air-coolers, lol.
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Post by busaddict on Sept 25, 2020 8:31:16 GMT -8
Volktales wrote: " The original distributors in these cars were precisely matched to the original carburetors when new. This was necessary to allow the smooth acceleration which depends on the correct vacuum signal from the carburetor to the correct vacuum canister in the distributor to allow just the right amount of timing advance at the right RPM. Get it right, and you are rewarded with smooth acceleration under any condition load, speed, and temperature. Get it wrong, and some level of jerkyness/ hesitation will be present on acceleration and at light cruise conditions." It's true, I once thought my bus wouldn't run properly until I tightened the exhaust and found an OEM distributor. I run stock Solex carbs. While it is possible to run a 009 you'll find yourself having to work it with the gas pedal to smooth things out. Also. the correct dizzie will improve your gas mileage
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Post by CrazyBrit on Sept 25, 2020 17:42:48 GMT -8
To be fair my old 009 works just fine with my 36mm Webers. I only find myself feathering the throttle for the first minute or two until it warms up a touch, but that will be the lack of a choke, rather than the distributor.
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Post by Rob Sannes on Sept 25, 2020 18:02:23 GMT -8
To be honest I have never driven a stock air cooled vw I look foward to trying one out some day
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Post by Brenticon on Sept 25, 2020 20:37:59 GMT -8
Hahahaha @ Rob
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Post by magikbus on Sept 26, 2020 8:51:33 GMT -8
To be honest I have never driven a stock air cooled vw I look foward to trying one out some day When my mother (at 92 years old) almost backed over a kid in the Safeway parking lot while driving her near new '72 super bug, she decided to give it to me and buy an electric scooter. It had just under 20K miles and the only problem she had with it was having to get a new muffler every year. A result of her starting it once a week and driving it to the grocery store exactly 1 mile away, then home. I drove it for 20 years as a daily driver mostly from Kimberley to Cranbrook (30 mi) and back 200 days a year. without any major problems except a very worn steering box, although I did keep it up with frequent oil changes and valve tappet adjustments and new points and condenser "gifts". I almost forgot, including one trip to Toronto and back. It never let us down despite driving in -25 deg winter temps, over 4 feet of accumulated snow quite often in winter and putting on many miles on sketchy gravel logging roads (which resulted in gravel rash on the pan which of course resulted in excess rust.) I highly recommend "stock" if available and given the "new" tune up parts compare with NOS parts. Stan
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Post by Volktales on Jan 28, 2021 21:19:23 GMT -8
Well it's about time for another good old rant... Lets talk about that age old problem of how many $$$ that old VW of yours is actually worth. We have all seen those ads on TheSamba for some VW or another, and laughed at the "optimistic" prices that were being asked. I know I have, and enjoy reading the "whines" sections on that site. Recently I have had the "pleasure" of seeing one of those vehicles up close and personal, and have come up with a list of what I think you shouldn't get when if you fork out large $$$ for a classic VW... First up is what is a high priced VW? For me anything more than $900, but I am admittedly living in the past. Realistically I am talking about those VWs you see advertised at $25,000 plus dollars. I am not talking about early VWs of any description here, just the more common '60s and later stuff, excluding split buses. To me, $25,000 and higher VWs should be the best of the best. Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way... This particular air-cooled VW looked nice, and everyone here would have said that, had they seen it cruise by them on the highway. The recent paint was very smooth and shiny, the non-original wheels suited it nicely, and the custom muffler sounded great as well. The for-sale sign in the window was noted... and later an on-line ad was found. The asking price was , so how did it measure up? Well, um, allow me to rant away... For the asking price you would probably not expect to find these "issues" with a huge dollar VW. The engine was absolutely filthy, having never been cleaned, let alone anything repainted in its decades of life. Corroded alloy, rusty steel shrouds, the usual missing/mickey-moused wiring and hoses, engine compartment seal torn up, missing chunks, etc. And the usual caked on oil underneath. The heater boxes were especially fine, with the outer casings missing large portions, and the rotten heater valving not really attached to anything... Nice. The engine compartment was a mess too, with some remaining original paint, a lot of black spray-bombed mess, combined with rust and general filth... Interior: Do you think a high dollar VW should have hacked and warped trim panels, secured in many places with gorilla tape? More dirt throughout and general shabbiness. Weather the next owner likes the custom seats as much as the current owner is open to debate. Broken levers and missing fasteners throughout the interior was disappointing too. Outside: Would you be happy to spend large on a VW with chrome trim so cheap, that it has already rusted after the first rain storm? How about rusty mismatched fasteners holding things together? Doors that won't open and close smoothly. And a pet peeve of mine: different keys for every single lock on the vehicle. Cheap reproduction lights that are fading. Blah. But the worst of all is rust. Big dollar VWs should be completely free of rust! Either original unrestored, or properly repaired bodywork. This means that all rust was cut out, replaced with new metal, and done in a way to replicate factory strength. AND PROTECTED afterwards! This last point is a big fail on many VWs out there. In this particular case, replacement of a lower body panel was cosmetic only from the outside, and no attempt whatsoever had been made to restore any strength, and the underside was a mess of holes with the new panel GLUED over top the old rusty one... There were many areas of the bodywork, where little bubbles were already coming through the recent paint... Sadly, most of these issues could be forgiven if the VW in question was priced accordingly. But it was not to be. The owner probably had a fair penny invested into this thing already and was determined to get his money back plus who knows how much profit. Scary what is out there and as usual, buyer beware! And the price for all this? Lets just say it was more the $25,000 mentioned earlier. A LOT more!
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Post by tony on Jan 28, 2021 23:01:36 GMT -8
Ok , ok I'll take $24,900 for it!
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Post by Rob Sannes on Jan 29, 2021 0:00:33 GMT -8
Russ did I over spend in the last one I bought? We are in a strange time with old vw's they are so desirable, so obviously that makes the price go up. Rare are even honest safe drivers.Classic vw's are said to have gained between 10% & 15% this year alone depending on year and model. Most buyers are uneducated or un informed and think if they saw a 62 beetle sell for 15,000 then their dead uncles 73 super beetle under the pine tree in the back yard should be worth that too. I had to stop looking at ads for vw's, I bought too many over the last couple years haha. But rarely do I see anything that is even worth going to look at in person. Long gone are the days of aircooled cars under a grand that you could actually safely drive. A car that would be is now about a 5000.00 car. There are so few that are clean and solid let alone original and when you do find one you got pay up. Remember what the guy wanted for my old 69 like 6 years ago he was asking 14,000 I paid 6000.00 for it and was ashamed of myself. It's now Gregs car, but at the time I bought it wouldnt start was green and slimey had pathetic wireing and lowered so low I nearly compressed a disk driving it home. I then had to do a lot of work clutch fuel pump complete rewire back to stock spec added a bunch of nice parts front and back seats brakes rims tires front beam and when I sold it to Greg I made him pay up pretty good too. (Sorry Greg did the best I could buddy, you got the friend price) I think if I were to sell that car today I would ask 12,500 and take nothing less than 11,000. But that car other than a not so great paint job is nice and clean and runs and drives great.
My (not for sale) 56 was over 20,000 when I bought it and have since installed a new motor and transaxle in it. I have no plans to sell but I wouldn't even consider less than 35,000.
These are not disposable cheap cars now because they were so cheap disposable. And you guys with the type 2 and giha's OMG
Russ you are right though, if you ask top dollar the it needs to be top quality. Soggy rusty shabby and 25k+ does not go together. You have built a beautiful collection of cars and better talk to your insurance broker and up that coverage.
Oh by the way do you want sell that Savanah Beigh 70?
Haha you gave a good rant so much so I had to rant too. Cheers
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Post by clay on Jan 29, 2021 12:35:20 GMT -8
So true. Many sellers price according to one of a few principles: The Barret Jackson effect; the emotional attachment premium; the "i told my wife i'd try to sell it wink wink" misdirection or simple greed.
There's a late '70s Cutlass in the listings now...good looking car for what it is, but not running. Either needs a tuneup or an engine rebuild (sic). Asking price is at least 5 times it's current value. Emotional premium on that one.
What strikes me when I look at high dollar cars that present nicely on the exterior are the short cuts taken when you start looking a little closer. Especially the little things that are inexpensive or easy to address...that laziness warns me about what might lie underneath all that exterior prettiness. If you can't do the small things right, why should I have confidence in how you handled the big things?
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Post by CrazyBrit on Jan 29, 2021 21:09:21 GMT -8
Totally agree with the above sentiments and I'm very glad I bought my bus before the prices went nuts (4350 GBP in 2001, just about running, but far from safe and road legal!). If only I had managed to convince my wife that the early 70s pre impact bumper 911E I was looking for was a good investment 13 years ago... I didn't buy one because I couldn't fit a kid's car seat in the back. Doh.
The above said, I just went through a few old receipts for parts on my bus that I have bought over the years. Holy crap I have spent a lot of money on that old vehicle! It's a good thing it makes me smile.
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